Zhu Yuanzhang was the founding emperor of the Ming Dynasty, who, after sixteen years of peasant uprisings, captured Beijing. Mao, similarly, became the leader who seized power after twenty-two years of peasant struggle. Mao saw many parallels between himself and Zhu, and he respected Zhu greatly. He once told Wu Han, author of Biography of Zhu Yuanzhang, to write well about him. Zhu had once proposed, “Build high walls, store abundant grain, but delay claiming kingship,” and in the 1960s Mao mimicked this, saying, “Dig deep ditches, store abundant grain, but do not seek hegemony.”

After spending forty years in hell, Mao realized that the public criticism of him was intense, and he felt puzzled. He thought to himself, “I am similar to Zhu; why is he praised by posterity while I am condemned like a corpse being whipped?” Mao wished to ask Zhu about this in person and submitted a request to the Jade Emperor, who approved and arranged a meeting between the two spirits.

Mao opened the conversation directly: “I commanded the nation with my ‘highest directives’ while alive, but after my death, even though my successors still defend me, public criticism and scorn continue to rise. I don’t understand why. I am similar to you—I rose from a peasant uprising to become emperor—but you have always been revered after death. Even the Kangxi Emperor, whose accomplishments surpassed yours, paid homage to you and erected inscriptions praising you ‘above Tang and Song.’”

Zhu replied: “I have been observing the mortal world from the spirit realm. You spent your life in rebellion until old age, but there are major differences between you and me. After I gained power, I never forgot my ancestors and continued to honor Confucius, though I did not let Mencius enter the Confucian temple because of his claim that ‘the ruler is light.’ I respected Confucianism, Daoism, and Buddhism as the soul of the nation. In contrast, you forgot your ancestors and abandoned Confucianism, Daoism, and Buddhism, instead bringing in a foreign ideology to create divine authority, arbitrary class divisions, and class struggle. You set millions of citizens against each other, rivers of blood flowed, countless people died, the nation was thrown into chaos, and people suffered. For thousands of years, no ruler has committed crimes on the scale you did.”

Mao responded: “I also wanted to save the country and the people! That’s why the intellectuals wrote songs praising me as ‘The East is Red,’ hailing me as the ‘Great Savior.’ I didn’t expect your evaluation to be so harsh.”

Zhu said: “Your second crime is ‘recognizing a thief as your father and inviting the wolf into the house.’ The Russians took advantage of the Qing Dynasty to seize vast Chinese territories, that was theft. At the beginning of the Republic, they instigated Outer Mongolia to separate, expanding their sphere of influence and causing China to lose land. You and your Communist Party took their money and weapons, invited them as advisors, and brought the wolf into your house, plunging the nation into darkness. You followed Stalin, recognized him as the boss, and became his partner, opening a communist branch, causing chaos everywhere.”

Mao said: “I originally wanted to learn from the Russian revolutionary model, follow the Russian path, and save the country and the people!”

Zhu retorted: “You did not save the country and the people. Your third crime is forgetting the people and treating them like ants. You launched the Great Leap Forward and the People’s Communes, using the people as test subjects, acting recklessly, causing nationwide famine, and millions of innocent people died. In all of Chinese history, no one has governed the country in such a disastrous way.”

Mao said: “I launched the Great Leap Forward to surpass Britain and catch up with the United States!”

Zhu said: “Your campaign to surpass Britain and catch up with the U.S. was an empty slogan. Your fourth crime is arrogance and ambition—you wanted to become the world’s communist king, spending the nation’s wealth to please foreigners, showering gifts for your own glory while the people suffered. From the ‘Korean War’ onward, you sacrificed hundreds of thousands of people to secure your status in the Comintern. After Stalin died, you sought to replace him, sidelining Khrushchev, paying any price. In Indonesia, 400,000 died due to your revolutionary encouragement. In Cambodia, 2 million died. China has always been the world’s largest country since the Han Dynasty, but no emperor ever sought world domination; it was always voluntary ‘tribute from all nations.’”

Mao said: “I wanted to pursue international communism!”

Zhu replied: “You are heinous and leave a trail of disasters. No argument can excuse you. Your current successors still cover up your misdeeds, but the cover-up cannot last. Now your successor, Xi Jinping, continues your policy of keeping the people ignorant. The only path for you is to repent, seek forgiveness, and reduce your sins, so that history records may be somewhat softened.”

Mao said: “Am I entirely wrong? Don’t I still have merit for defeating Chiang Kai-shek and founding the New China?”

Zhu replied: “If after founding the country, you had built it like Taiwan in the 1950s and allowed it to flourish, you would have merit. But in reality, your founding marked the beginning of disasters. What you called ‘liberation’ was actually enslavement. Your misrule after founding was a continuation and development of your prior crimes.”

Mao said: “I defeated Chiang Kai-shek and unified China. Doesn’t that count for something?”

Zhu said: “What merit is that? The Republic of China was a legitimate government. You had no need to rebel and overthrow Chiang. Chiang, though flawed, did not commit the four major crimes I just mentioned. He could have corrected errors gradually. After retreating to Taiwan in 1949, his actions showed he had national sentiment, moral standards, and respect for culture. He was completely different from a bottomless, inhumane villain like you. You exploited foreign aid, incited rebellion, seized power by chance, and ruled with lies. Millions perished—what merit is there in that?”

Mao said: “You also rose through rebellion. Why are you credited, then?”

Zhu said: “I overthrew the Mongol rulers who were culturally backward. After founding the dynasty, I implemented measures to strengthen the state and let the people recover, making the Ming Dynasty a golden age. I made mistakes, but historians judged my achievements outweighed my faults, acknowledging my contribution to civilization. Hence, I am remembered in history. You rebelled, causing a setback in civilization. Beyond the four major crimes, you destroyed countless historical relics.”

Mao, hearing Zhu’s stern rebuke in person, felt as if thunder had struck his ears. Awakened like from a dream, his face turned pale, sweat poured, and he had no words to respond. He stood, bowed to the Taizu Emperor, expressed thanks, and took his leave.

NEXT: 5. Emperor Daoguang (1782–1850)